On another blog, my assertion that “abortion is no safer now that it is legal.” Was labeled as “a ridiculous statement”, my “misguided opinion” and a “ridiculous false statement.” And was informed that “abortion as practiced in the west by experienced medical personnel in a sterile surgical environment is exponentially safer than home/folk remedies being put in the hands of women who might be marginally familiar with their uses at best. If you googled just the one method I mentioned - pennyroyal - I would be willing to bet your search results would include several news items in which pregnant women attempting to end an unwanted pregnancy had fatally overdosed.”
They may think I am crazy, but I’m not. As it happens this is one area where I am pretty well informed. The problem is that the facts that I am about to discuss are never mentioned by the media.
Here is my response in no particular order:
1) Abortion in America is very often not practiced by experienced medical personnel.You do not have to be a doctor to perform an abortion in the U.S.
2) it is often not practiced in a sterile environment in fact, many abortion clinics have been found to merely wipe the blood off and go to the next patient. If you do not believe me, go to your local crisis pregnancy center and ask them how often they help women who have gotten infections and diseases from ana abortion
3) abortion, when performed by a doctor, is rarely performed by a person who is competent. Few doctors want to perform them, and the ones that do are very often forced to do so because they cannot get a job elsewhere because they have malpracticed so often. Abortionists are the scum of the medical profession.
4) The abortionist spends very little time with the patient. The women are prepped in several rooms and the abortionist goesfrom room to room and performs the abortions very quickly. If you have an abortion, this is what you will see of the doctor: You will see him for the first time as he walks quickly into the room, performs the abortion and is out of the room in about six minutes.
5) abortionist when they injure a woman, because they usually have numerous malpractice suits already, and because they are embarrassed to have an ambulance in front of the clinic, try to cover it up and several women have bled to death as a result of not being taken to a hospital quickly enough
6) the type of abortion women have where it is legal is essentially the same as what they had when it was illegal. The horror stories of coat hangers etc. are mere propaganda. The doctors who testified in Roe vs. Wade admitted they lied.
7) more women die of abortion today than they did before it was legal.
8) Compared to other areas of medcine, the abortion industry is virtually unregulated.
9) There is an abundance of former abortionists who say the following: I started doing abortions for two reasons: to help women and to make money. Within two months that became one reason: Money. I found out quickly that abortion does not help anyone.
10) The number of complications from and malpractices in abortion procedures is (I would say "grossly") underreported. Abortion clinics usually do not provide care for complications. Women have to go to other facilities and are embarrasses about the abortion and request the doctor keep it hushed.
11) There is rarely anything approaching informed consent in the abortion industry.
12) In Louisiana during the Clinton administration, the Department of Health and hospitals wanted to shut down a clinic, but as it turns out, abortion clinics are not regulated by the Louisiana Department of Health and Hospitals. The only agency that could touch the clinic was OSHA because the unsanitary conditions posed a threat to the employees. There was another agency, a law enforcement agency though I can't recall if it was the FBI or the AG or what, who was about to conduct an investigation of a particular clinic, but the people working the case were told that word came from "very high" to "back off."
13) Making abortion legal did not make it more psychologically safe.
14) Abortion still increases the risk of breast cancer.
15) JOURNAL OF THE AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION: "Complications following abortions performed in free-standing clinics is one of the most frequent gynecologic emergencies . . . encountered. Even life-endangering complications rarely come to the attention of the physician who performed the abortion unless the incident entails litigation. The statistics presented by Cates represent substantial under- reporting and disregard women’s reluctance to return to a clinic, where, in their mind, they received inadequate treatment." L. Iffy, "Second Trimester Abortions," JAMA, vol. 249, no. 5, Feb. 4, 1983, p. 588.
16) "One sequel to abortion can be a killer. This is pelvic abscess, almost always from a perforation of the uterus and sometimes also of the bowel," said two professors from UCLA, in reporting on four such cases. C. Gassner & C. Ballard, Amer. Jour. OB/GYN, vol. 48, p. 716 as reported in Emerg. Med. After Abortion-Abscess, vol. 19, no. 4, Apr. 1977
17) The number of women who die from abortion appears to be about the same now, though it is grossly underreported, as it was the year before abortion on demand became legal.
This is what I threw together quickly. I would invite you, whether you agree or disagree, to give me suggestions for improving this post by comment or e-mail
If you are interested in reading more, here you go:
What Former Abortionists Say
WHO Official Admits Legal Abortion is Not "Safe" For Women
Statistics
Lie Admitted
Stories
Department of Labor: Abortion clinics do not comply with OSHA regulations and guidelines.
Lack of Informed Consent
Abortionists Are Not Held Accountable for Mistakes
Lack of Regulation
Victims Speak Out
32 comments:
This data is a little hard to analyze. For instance, the first link you provide gives information about third world countries. Nobody is making any claims for the safety of anything there.
The second link gives hard numbers in one instance and numbers-per-hundred thousand in another, without citing the total number, so that a hard number can be derived. It is impossible to tell whether abortion is more dangerous than childbirth.
I'm not convinced. If it were true, feminists would be screaming about it and funding lawsuits, since first trimester and second trimester abortions SHOULD be safer than childbirth. What is described in the information you provide may be the experience had by some poor women without the means to pay, but I guarantee that middle-class and upper-middle-class women would not and do not endure such things.
Infection is a risk in any surgical procedure, including abortion, and that is a major problem undeniably. But it has nothing to do with the nature of abortion per se.
Why don't feminist scream about the fact that virtually all abortions in India are of females? Why don't they scream about forced abortions in China? You will find that there are a lot of things feministsought to but don't scream about.
That reminds me...I need to add a number 9.
Where is your proof that it is safer?
Where is your proof that it is safer?
I'm going with common sense and the accepted wisdom. It's up to you to prove that what most people take for granted is false.
"I'm going with common sense and the accepted wisdom."
This strikes me as rather flimsy evidence. After all "common sense and the accepted wisdom" was all the evidence they had against heliocentrism.
Histor
P.S. Even if it's safer for the mother, what about the child that gets killed in an abortion? Wouldn't it be safer (medically speaking) for all involved that the child be born naturally or through a C-section?
Histor, Thanks for stopping by and weighing in. Cool blog you got there.
Wouldn't it be safer (medically speaking) for all involved that the child be born naturally or through a C-section?
I dunno. Would it? There are still women dying in childbirth. What are the comparative stats on that and women dying from complications after abortion?
Rodak,
Dang man, are you really that clueless? It is extremely rare for women to die in childbirth in America today. Also, I've heard it from a couple OBGYN's that there is really no instance where a fetus threatens the life of the mother--major exception is tubal pregnancy, which even the RC Church says can be removed.
As for the number of women who die during or due to complications from abortions, you'll be surprised. I'll hunt up the number and add the statistic to this post. Glad you asked.
My number of reasons abortion is not safer is 14 and growing.
We can play duelling stats, if you want. Here's a site that supports my contention:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_fact.htm
Death rate as a result of abortion: "...deaths [from complications] related to legal induced abortions occurred rarely." There were fewer than one death due to complications per 100,000 legal abortions. From 1993 to 1997, the case-fatality rate was 0.6 deaths per 100,000 abortions. This is much lower than the rate of maternal deaths for completed pregnancies. Having a legal abortion is safer, on average, than completing the pregnancy. 1 Abortions that are performed early in pregnancy lead to far fewer complications than abortions done later.
And here are stats on death from childbirth:
The death rate for women giving birth plummeted in the 20th century.
At the beginning of the century, maternal death rates were around their historical level of nearly 1 in 100 for live births. The number today in the United States is 13 in 100,000, a decline by a factor of 100.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maternal_death
"These have been grossly under-reported. The expose’ on this is detailed in Lime 5 published by Life Dynamics. The author and his staff have verified 23 deaths from induced abortion in 1992-93. All were reported to state agencies. There is documentation from state health departments that 18 were reported to the Federal Center for Disease Control. However, the official report of the CDC listed only 2 deaths. "At Life Dynamics we knew abortion complications were grotesquely under-reported, but attributed it to garden-variety bureaucratic incompetence." But after continuing research, they documented "that the flawed abortion data from the CDC was not from ineptitude but of dishonesty and manipulation" after finding that "a large percentage of CDC employees had direct ties to the abortion industry," they retitled the CDC to stand for "Center for Damage Control" — "The CDC doesn’t oversee abortion, it justifies it." M. Crutcher, Lime 5-Exploited by Choice, Genesis Pub., Chapter 4, "Cooking the Books," p. 135.
The claim that relevant statistics can be collected from the place where the abortion was performed "is little short of science fiction."
"Complications following abortions performed in free-standing clinics is one of the most frequent gynecologic emergencies . . . encountered. Even life-endangering complications rarely come to the attention of the physician who performed the abortion unless the incident entails litigation. The statistics presented by Cates represent substantial under- reporting and disregard women’s reluctance to return to a clinic, where, in their mind, they received inadequate treatment." L. Iffy, "Second Trimester Abortions," JAMA, vol. 249, no. 5, Feb. 4, 1983, p. 588."
http://www.abortionfacts.com/online_books/love_them_both/why_cant_we_love_them_both_21.asp
You're quoting wikipedia?
Your statistics on the decline of deaths of women from childbirth is neither here nor there. The decline is due mostly to antibiotics and better medical care. Legal abortion has not helped the number of deaths from childbirth.
Here's another site:
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwR/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5309a1.htm
Interpretation: During 1990--1997, the number of legal induced abortions gradually declined. When the same 48 reporting areas are compared, the number of abortions decreased during 1996--2001. In 2000 and 2001, even with one additional reporting state, the number of abortions declined slightly. In 2000, as in previous years, deaths related to legal induced abortions occurred rarely (less than one death per 100,000 abortions).
More maternal death stats available here:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/24/AR2007082401321.html
Rodak,
You will believe what you want to believe. I think I have given some data that a reasonable person would consider. You are right, we can trade statistics.
Here is what I will ask of you: Please admit that my assertion that “abortion is no safer now that it is legal” is not “a ridiculous statement”, my “misguided opinion” and a “ridiculous false statement.”
Some more light reading . Tell me when you want me to stop:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7977548
"Between 1972 and 1987, 240 women died as a result of legal induced abortions. The case-fatality rate decreased 90% over time, from 4.1 deaths per 100,000 abortions in 1972 to 0.4 in 1987. Women > or = 40 years old had three times the risk of death as teenagers (relative risk 3.0, 95% confidence interval 1.5 to 6.0), and black women and those of other minority races had 2.5 times the risk of white women (relative risk 2.5, 95% confidence interval 1.9 to 3.2). Abortions at > or = 16 weeks were associated with a risk of death almost 15 times the risk of death from procedures at < or = 12 weeks' gestation. Women undergoing currettage procedures for abortion had a significantly lower risk of death than women undergoing other procedures. Whereas before 1977 infection and hemorrhage were the leading causes of death, during 1977 through 1982 anesthesia complications emerged as one of the leading causes of death and since 1983 have become the most frequent cause."
As you see, the most common cause is anesthesia. I.e., the nature of the procedure itself is not dangerous.
Civis--
The bottom line is that neither legal abortion nor childbirth is very dangerous to the mother; but legal abortion is less so.
All of that said, I'm not an abortion advocate. I do think, however, that until there is a constitutional amendment defining a fetus as a person, that women have the right to choose.
Following that constitutional amendment, abortion will be first-degree murder, and the mother will be the murderer, along with the abortionist.
Please admit that my assertion that “abortion is no safer now that it is legal” is not “a ridiculous statement”, my “misguided opinion” and a “ridiculous false statement.”
The point is that abortion is either a medical procedure, or it's premeditated murder; there is no gray area.
That being the case, those pro-lifers who say "overturn Roe v. Wade and let the states decide are blatant hypocrites -- murder is not a state's rights issue; murder is illegal everywhere, and always.
Only giving the fetus full constitutional rights as a person will allow abortion to finally be defined as murder.
When that happens, those who want to prosecute only the abortionist will be blantant hypocrites. If you hire a hit man to kill your wife, you are guilty of murder. The situation with abortion will be precisely analogous.
There also can be no exceptions for incest and rape, or, I would think, for the life of the mother.
It is because all of these things are the case, that the constitutional amendment will probably never happen. No politician is going stand up for these things, because push-come-to-shove even most people who think that they are pro-life won't go that far with it; it has no political support when it goes to its logical conclusions.
Please admit that my assertion that “abortion is no safer now that it is legal” is not “a ridiculous statement”, my “misguided opinion” and a “ridiculous false statement.”
Please admit that my assertion that “abortion is no safer now that it is legal” is not “a ridiculous statement”, my “misguided opinion” and a “ridiculous false statement.”
To the contrary, the text I provided at April 5, 2008 8:44 PM shows that legal abortion--already quite safe--has actually gotten safer since its been legal.
You have shown some purported instances of unsafe practices due to lack of regulation. Based on that, you want me to believe that abortion was just as safe when it was both illegal and had absolutely no regulation anywhere, anytime, at all. That just doesn't make sense on the face of it. Women of means do not get their legal abortions in butcher shops--that you can believe.
Because you hate abortion, you will believe any propaganda against it that is put out there by partisan activists. My outlook is more objective. I'm not for it, and wish it weren't so in demand, but I think that it should be available under prevailing law. I'm not emotionally involved either way.
Rodak,
Well, as usual you are quite handy with the ad hominem.
You mean to tell me you do not have the objectivity to admit that my assertion is not “a ridiculous statement”, my “misguided opinion” and a “ridiculous false statement”?
I'm not saying that you have to agree with me. I think that if you cannot admit that there is ample support for what I am saying, you lose credibility before anyone with a modicum of reason and objectivity.
But, as I said, you will believe what you want to believe. Nevertheless, for the beneift of those with open minds, I will give you my final salvo:
What I say is not based on my hatred of anything. I can honestly say it is based on cold objectivity. My position does not depend on the relative safety of abortion, though yours does. You have all to lose in this discussion. My position remains rock solid regardless how safe or unsafe abortion is.
Be that as it may. My position on this point is based on personal interviews with women who have had abortions, crisis preganancy counselors, abortion clinic workers and nurses, clinic owners, and abortionists themselves--current and former.
It is also based on following this issue with interest for some 19 years. In those 19 years I have seen first hand the lies the abortion industry and the establishemnt that supports it churn out. The credibility of the abortion industry and those who back it has been undercut by my PERSONAL observation, and by their own admission of lies.
What is more, I have been able to place events where I was present, or where I was able to speak with someone with first-hand knowledge, side by side with what the media reports.
I won't be so silly as to ask you to admit that the media (where YOU get your information--rather than from studying the issue yourself) is biased on this issue.
The one thing you cannot say is that my position is based on personal fancy rather than careful study and observation.
Can the same be said of you? I think your own words above betray and convict you.
You point a finger of bias, but there are three fingers pointing back at you.
Thou dost protest too much!
Well, as usual you are quite handy with the ad hominem.
You mean like this?:
Dang man, are you really that clueless?
My position does not depend on the relative safety of abortion, though yours does.
Really? I thought what we were now discussing was your assertion that legal abortion is no safer than illegal abortion was?
Anyway, let's get off abortion per se. I'm for a constitutional amendment, and until that happens, I'm for the status quo for all the reasons I've given over and over.
Why don't you, instead, move on to the proposed discussion of affluence as a factor in the growth of the "culture of death," as was suggested in your exchange with Steph on Kyle's blog. That could be interesting.
Here is an interesting piece:
http://maureenmartinblog.blogspot.com/
rodak, Ellen Williams was a public school administrator, very solidly middle-class. That didn't protect her. Though you are right in that the fly-by-nights will more often prey on the poor and minority women. Which probably explains why there's no outcry by the abortion lobby. It's not their sisters, wives, and friends suffering horrible injuries and agonizing death. So why should they care?
rodak, I know of three criminal abortionists who had never been linked to a single patient death, who each went on to kill TWO women after legalization: Benjamin Munson, Jesse Ketchum, and Milan Vuitch. The same guys doing abortions through the back alley just hung up their shingles on Main Street with legalization. Why would taking away the threat of prison make them more careful?
rodak, our abortion death stats are totally bogus. The CDC makes only dulsatory efforts to identify and report abortion deaths, but, along with the rest of the abortion lobby, they release their flawed data as if it was reliable.
They also pull underhanded stunts like count ectopic pregnancy deaths in which the abortion prevented prompt lifesaving care in their own category, thus lowering the numbers further.
And even if carrying to term actually were riskier, it wouldn't be relevant, any more than traffic fatalities are relevant to an air crash investigation. If anything, the whole push for abortion increases pregnancy risks, because the abortion lobby just pushes for "education as to the availability of safe, legal abortion" as their answer to everything, instead of pushing for prenatal care for women who haven't made their minds up yet. Regardless of the choice she makes,the care will reduce her risk or morbidity and mortality. But to provide even a single prenatal visit would possibly disincline the woman toward abortion, and goddess forbid we do that!
Granny,
Thanks for stopping by and helping me with your excellent criticism and suggestions. I will work on the improvements you suggest.
"Why would taking away the threat of prison make them more careful?"
Excellent point.
1.Point - 90% or more of pre-legalization abortions were done by doctors. The next most common abortionist was the midwife or nurse or other medically trained person, who often had physician training and backup. Next most common was the trained layperson, like the Jane syndicate in Chicago, where they were not medical people but had been trained and provisioned by doctors who provided emergency backup. So the image of the coathanger isn't a reflection of standard criminal abortion practice. It was very rare and more typical of women with severe mental health issues, which might be why the problem persists (but doesn't get much attention).
2. Only in some states are non-physicians permitted to perform abortions. But you don't have to be an ob/gyn. You can be a podiatrist or a psychiatrist. Any MD or DO.
I'd recommend that you add hyperlinks with examples of the charges, preferably to "secular" (i.e. not prolife) sources.
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